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Abolitionist Mariame Kaba is the founder of Project NIA and the author of the New York Times bestseller, We Do This ‘Til We Free Us: Abolitionist Organizing and Transforming Justice. Kaba and Dr. Kendi have a profound discussion on why mass surveillance, police, punishment, and incarceration will never create a safe society—and what will. For further reading, resources, and a transcript of this episode visit https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/be-antiracist-with-ibram-x-kendi.

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